6x01 ~ The Mastodon in the Room ~ SHOW DISCUSSION

joybrennan wrote:

flyersfan35 wrote:

i_heart_bones wrote:

jonezn4Bones wrote:Suffice it to say that there have been several things established over the course of the series:

4) Bones is really a vehicle to introduce whatever personal agendas the producers, writers, and actors want to promote.

Is that not the very notion of television?
The actors, writers and producers will always draw from their own personal experiences/opinions to attempt to create a realistic television show...
I know that no one episode is going to please everybody, they know that too.
For me, trying to wish for different plot lines, and a story arc that involves character development that I really want to see happen, is like taking the last chapter of a novel and scribbling it out and writing your own. It just doesn't seem right...

Given the mood in here, I'm almost afraid to say that I agree with you. Being a writer, even if it is only low quality fanfiction and original stories, I completely understand. When I have an idea, I think about it and it grows in my mind. I expand until I see the whole picture...and my vision of the story and development of the characters is going to be completely different than some of the readers. I mean, I've read many, many books, and most times, they don't end the way I envisioned when I started out. That being said, I do get comments about certain things, (ie; plot developments, new characters, etc), and sometimes I think about it and realize that I like the idea and can find a way to use it. But ultimately, it's MY story...it's about my vision. I realize everyone has their opinion, and I respect that, but to say that I shouldn't be writing it the way I envision it is just wrong. HH obviously had a vision about this show...he obviously cares for it, just the way I care about every story I write and every character I create. If he feels he needs so many obstacles to keep BB apart until he puts them together...well, that's his story. Trust me, I get frustrated too...there are things that I don't like, but instead of berating him for his vision, I just try to accept it and move on. Most of the time, I really enjoy the show...if I can laugh and cry and feel something in each episode, then I'm happy. And most times, I do.

I do understand that everyone is different, and they invest so much more into a show, and that's fine. And believe me, I do love reading people's opinions. I just hate when people say that HH is the devil for writing the show his way...it is HIS SHOW. And before I get bashed, I'm not talking about some of the things he gets wrong, I'm just talking about his vision. Although I do think that if he had to follow every rule and law known to man, the show would be a lot less entertaining...some restrictions really need to be dismissed so that the story can be developed.

I think jonezy has a great point...the show isn't imperative to him anymore. He can watch without so much expectation, and I think he can enjoy it more now. Picking apart every little thing seems to me an exercise in futility. I could never enjoy a show so much if I was worried about everything being exactly by the book. But to each his own...trust me, I totally get that.

Yikes...I really didn't start out to write a novel...lol. Although I do have to say, only because I feel so strongly...I feel Hero in the Hold was a great episode, full of action and emotion...and yes, a ghostly quality. So what? Booth the character would completely believe in it, so I really never understood why it was so offensive to some. No one asked us to believe in ghosts, but I think it fit the character well. Soap opera-ish? Why? Because it went out of the realm of solid reality into the unknown? Tough. I wouldn't go so far as to say that I believe in ghosts, but I do know there are a LOT of unexplained things out there, and I would never think of berating someone for their belief of the paranormal. No, the show isn't about ghosts and paranormal activity, but for one episode, we can't even explore the possibilities? Sorry,I just think that's silly. And please don't bash me, I'm just stating my opinion, just like everyone else has.

Holy crap...I've rambled on and now I'm late! I truly hope everyone has a great day/night!

I didn't have a problem with the ghost conceit - it worked for Shakespeare, and HAD A POINT. It also wasn't OUT OF CHARACTER for Booth to believe in such things. We have talked about this stuff on the board before, but not in terms of what to expect from a professional writer - a showrunner. The idea that it's HH's creation and that anything he writes is therefore GOOD, is something that I can't agree with.

In terms of Hart's universe, he breaks his own constructs, and rearranges his characters' history to fit whatever episode is being worked on. If he were writing fan-fiction I wouldn't be complaining. He isn't. He is being paid major amounts of money to turn out a quality product, and IMO he's been falling down on the job. He is a professional. There is such a thing in professional writing as a time line, a treatment, an arc. His lack of continuity comes out of not keeping track of these things. In the world he created, Cam's the best coroner in the state. This means - as a good writer - you need to come up with another reason for being unable to identify the body as NOT being Logan. It means you THINK it through, work with the character. You don't just suddenly turn the character into someone who can't tell the difference between an Asian and Caucasian child.

If this were Fringe I could with entering a different universe every few episodes, but this ain't Fringe, and the characters are acting like aliens from some other universe, perhaps "Days of Our Lives," since even within an episode you don't know which version of a character is going to be speaking.

On the other hand. I do agree that it is Hart's Universe to f**k up. Being it's on network TV and he's being paid to write the show, I also think we have the right to comment on the fact that the rules he put in place for his universe - which he wants us to tune into - is currently a mass of chaos. We are allowed to voice our disappointment in his current work. He created high expectations with his first three seasons. If the show had started out at this level of writing, I wouldn't be complaining. (Nor would I have gotten hooked on it, but that's something else entirely.)

The first letdown was Zach - but there was a writer's strike. It was out of his control, a difficult situation. Then, half a season of being told B&B were getting together - and we got a brain tumor and a fantasy. A brain tumor. Total soap opera, but ok. One major unlikely, out of nowhere event in a story arc is allowed. (not kidding, it's a screenwriter's tip. You break the audience's sense of reality if there's more than one. Works great in slapstick comedy, but Bones is a drama/procedural with humorous elements - at best a dramedy).

Season five...Booth thinks he's love, Bones is allowing herself to open up and get closer to him, to people, to love. She's agreeing to be a part of his kid's life, bonding with his grandfather, explaining that she's had change in position about her belief in romantic love, giving credit to Booth for that change...and then two episodes later, she's explaining that she's incapable of change and therefore can't be with Booth, she's afraid her "lack" of being adaptable will hurt Booth. Saying she unaware of her ability to change - when she JUST EXPLAINED that she HAS CHANGED, is just bad writing. It was inconvenient to the agenda of splitting B&B apart.

It's not that he shouldn't have split them apart. This is not about wanting the show to go in a certain direction. If he'd wanted to split them apart, there are plenty of places building up to the 100th where he could have had Brennan express doubt about herself, her abilities to love. It could have been done without decimating his characters. She could have said to Booth the Christmas gathering made her uncomfortable - even though she knew it was the right thing to do. That speech about believing in love would NOT have happened, even if it was so pretty - in a Brennan sort-of way. She could have reacted as hoping for the best with them, even though she wasn't sure if love truly exists. That would be planning, thinking about where you want the characters to go next. That would have added some plausibility to the ending of the 100th.

I'm not even going to get into Booth.

We can split an atom to release energy, but it's not a natural, "organic" (to borrow from SN's TV guide interview) occurrence, and doing so destroys the original mass. Yes, it can produce energy for us to use, but it can also destroy a world. It needs to be done carefully, and with A LOT of thought and planning. Careful thought and planning is not what we're been seeing on Bones.

In a much shorter analogy: If Bones were his baby, I would be calling the authorities about child abuse.

As to why I still care...I love the kid too much to just completely walk away - even if I'm powerless to do anything but be a witness to the parents' abuse.

CanadianBones wrote:Well I'm pretty sure every aspect of the episode and then some has been discussed in here, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.

oh I just thought of something. I so loved the scene between Ange and Jack at the diner and they are talking about Jack being a Dad and his excitement over the baby and aww it was just so sweet!

THX1138 wrote:

CanadianBones wrote:Well I'm pretty sure every aspect of the episode and then some has been discussed in here, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.

oh I just thought of something. I so loved the scene between Ange and Jack at the diner and they are talking about Jack being a Dad and his excitement over the baby and aww it was just so sweet!

I will say that it's among my favorite scenes in the episode. TJ's acting is far from subtle but it just works. I mean, he pulls off adoring, wonder-struck, future father as well as I've ever seen it done. It was really sort of sweet in a way we rarely see on the show.


RM

crzy4bones wrote:

THX1138 wrote:

CanadianBones wrote:Well I'm pretty sure every aspect of the episode and then some has been discussed in here, I'm not sure what is left to discuss.

oh I just thought of something. I so loved the scene between Ange and Jack at the diner and they are talking about Jack being a Dad and his excitement over the baby and aww it was just so sweet!

I will say that it's among my favorite scenes in the episode. TJ's acting is far from subtle but it just works. I mean, he pulls off adoring, wonder-struck, future father as well as I've ever seen it done. It was really sort of sweet in a way we rarely see on the show.


RM

It was TOTALLY sweet....I love when a guy gets mushy about becoming a Daddy...does this mean when the time finally comes for Brennan to thaw out Booth's stuff for her baby that we won't get a mushy scene since they've already done a scene like that?

CanadianBones wrote:hahaha oh yeah, that exchange in the car was fantastic.

Matthie wrote:I do not think Booth has shown the photo of Hannah to hurt Bones. He has Bones showed the photo to show her that he has done what he thinks, what she wants.

Booth has always done everything to give to Brennan that he thinks she wants. It's always been like that, not only that he initially agreed to be the father of the child from Bones. All this he did out of love for her. As a favor for a partner it would be a bit too much. I have no doubt in his love for Bones.

In the 100th Bones has rejected him. IMO the result is that he thinks that she will not have a relationship with him, either now or in the future. He thinks everything what Bones wants is to work with him. At the end of the 5th Season Bones would not even work with him anymore. He has apparently also assumed that he was the only one in the seven months Bones had no contact. All encouraged him in his belief that they have never had a relationship.

IMO, Booth showed Bones the photo of Hannah to tell her, "Look, I've done what you wanted, I'm move on. Can we work together again? That is also everything that he asks, can we work together again, Are we a team? Are we back? He does not ask how in the 100th Do you regret your decision?

joybrennan wrote:

Matthie wrote:I do not think Booth has shown the photo of Hannah to hurt Bones. He has Bones showed the photo to show her that he has done what he thinks, what she wants.

Booth has always done everything to give to Brennan that he thinks she wants. It's always been like that, not only that he initially agreed to be the father of the child from Bones. All this he did out of love for her. As a favor for a partner it would be a bit too much. I have no doubt in his love for Bones.

In the 100th Bones has rejected him. IMO the result is that he thinks that she will not have a relationship with him, either now or in the future. He thinks everything what Bones wants is to work with him. At the end of the 5th Season Bones would not even work with him anymore. He has apparently also assumed that he was the only one in the seven months Bones had no contact. All encouraged him in his belief that they have never had a relationship.

IMO, Booth showed Bones the photo of Hannah to tell her, "Look, I've done what you wanted, I'm move on. Can we work together again? That is also everything that he asks, can we work together again, Are we a team? Are we back? He does not ask how in the 100th Do you regret your decision?

From what I understand, Booth shows off the picture like a trophy he has won.. Trophies goto the winner. He doesn't say, "hey, I met this amazing girl." He waits to see if Brennan has met anyone - then, once he's established that she has, he pulls out the Raghag, thus making Brennan the "loser."

Brennan never asked Booth to move on - that was his decision in response to her freak-out, "I'm not good enough for you, I can't change speech" last season. Thus, I can't really see how it's possible to construe Booth's actions in the premiere as having any other intention than - "FU - I've moved on to a hottie and I'm happy! Dammit, I. AM. HAPPY!"

It does though, leave something unanswered.
If Booth actually BELIEVED what Brennan said last season, and BELIEVED she would never be willing to be in a relationship, and that she DIDN'T want him - why make such a big deal out of this reporter barbie chick? Showing off his love life has NEVER been his style, so why now? The only thing that comes to mind is that he DOESN'T believe her. He thinks this will get to her, his moving on. Which would mean that he IS deliberately trying to hurt her. Real mature of him. (well, of the writers.)

THX1138 wrote:

joybrennan wrote:

Matthie wrote:I do not think Booth has shown the photo of Hannah to hurt Bones. He has Bones showed the photo to show her that he has done what he thinks, what she wants.

Booth has always done everything to give to Brennan that he thinks she wants. It's always been like that, not only that he initially agreed to be the father of the child from Bones. All this he did out of love for her. As a favor for a partner it would be a bit too much. I have no doubt in his love for Bones.

In the 100th Bones has rejected him. IMO the result is that he thinks that she will not have a relationship with him, either now or in the future. He thinks everything what Bones wants is to work with him. At the end of the 5th Season Bones would not even work with him anymore. He has apparently also assumed that he was the only one in the seven months Bones had no contact. All encouraged him in his belief that they have never had a relationship.

IMO, Booth showed Bones the photo of Hannah to tell her, "Look, I've done what you wanted, I'm move on. Can we work together again? That is also everything that he asks, can we work together again, Are we a team? Are we back? He does not ask how in the 100th Do you regret your decision?

From what I understand, Booth shows off the picture like a trophy he has won.. Trophies goto the winner. He doesn't say, "hey, I met this amazing girl." He waits to see if Brennan has met anyone - then, once he's established that she has, he pulls out the Raghag, thus making Brennan the "loser."

Brennan never asked Booth to move on - that was his decision in response to her freak-out, "I'm not good enough for you, I can't change speech" last season. Thus, I can't really see how it's possible to construe Booth's actions in the premiere as having any other intention than - "FU - I've moved on to a hottie and I'm happy! Dammit, I. AM. HAPPY!"

It does though, leave something unanswered.
If Booth actually BELIEVED what Brennan said last season, and BELIEVED she would never be willing to be in a relationship, and that she DIDN'T want him - why make such a big deal out of this reporter barbie chick? Showing off his love life has NEVER been his style, so why now? The only thing that comes to mind is that he DOESN'T believe her. He thinks this will get to her, his moving on. Which would mean that he IS deliberately trying to hurt her. Real mature of him. (well, of the writers.)

Now the sad thing is, I can totally see him doing that, but not necessarily because he doesn't believe her, I think he does, but I still think he's trying to hurt her. And yes, it's juvenile of him and a really shitty thing to do, but I think Booth was hurt much, much more than he let on - and why wouldn't he be?

I mean, here's a guy who's been in love with this woman for six years and he's thinking to himself, "Okay, the first time I made a play for her was no good because it was too much too soon, and I know now you can't rush her, but this is different. We've been friends and partners for five years, we trust each other with everything, we've had a surrogate relationship for the last two years, how can she say no?" Then she says no again. So yeah, he's angry and bitter and then she has the gall to ask him to stay friends and work with her every day like nothing happened between them and he's so love struck he STILL says yes when any other man would have walked. Finally, just when things look like they're going to go back to normal she pulls the rug out from under him by announcing she's leaving him for a year, and now we know she never had any inclination of calling him in that year, and what's he supposed to think?

He's had his heart broken, twice, his ego ground under foot, he's swallowed his pride and stayed, for her, and her response is to say "Sorry but I gotta do this for me"? What the hell?! So yeah, he comes back seven months later, seven months with NO CONTACT from the one woman he's loved for six years, and he can't wait to twist the knife a little. Again, juvenile? Yes. Shitty? Sure. Understandable? Absolutely. Hell, I'd have had some nudes of Hannah there and showed one or two "by mistake". Man, I know this is gonna be a tough sell for this audience but men actually do have feelings and when women treat us like shit we tend to return the favor, and for all the criticisms that can be leveled against Booth for the ham-fisted way he handled himself with Brennan during the 100th, she treated him like something she'd scrape off her shoe.


RM

crzy4bones wrote:I'm with the King...yeah, it's probably not the nicest way...and not real Boothy...but TOTALLY understandable. He's very hurt...and I don't think he's purposely trying to hurt her, but I don't think he's going to try to hide his feelings for Hannah from her to protect her.

And really..it wasn't that bad. I'd say joybrennan, that it's probably not fair to judge it just by what other people have said...but then I realize that there were already preconceived notions for the episode so watching the episode wouldn't have changed our opinion of it. He showed the picture, said he arrested her, said it was serious as a heartattack, and that was the end of the Hannah discussion with her. Her going on and on back in PitP about Hacker and sex codes was longer and probably way more hurtful then what Booth did on the steps.

The man has spent 6 years being her doormat, being called stupid many many times, pining after her, watching her sleep with his FBI friend, random men, AND date his boss' boss after he asked her not to. Any normal man would have either quit along time ago or snapped. And her bailing on him to go to Maluku was just the final straw. No, she didn't tell him to move on, that was his idea, but she didn't even attempt to stop him....she gave him NO hope that it would ever be anything other than WORK partners.

Hey..if she can discuss whether coffee with Hacker is a code for sex with him...he can show her a picture of his new hot blonde squeeze. After all...they are just friends and that's what friends do.

I don't remember what thread I said it in...but I said it's like Booth and Brennan have switched places emotionally.

joybrennan wrote:

crzy4bones wrote:I'm with the King...yeah, it's probably not the nicest way...and not real Boothy...but TOTALLY understandable. He's very hurt...and I don't think he's purposely trying to hurt her, but I don't think he's going to try to hide his feelings for Hannah from her to protect her.

And really..it wasn't that bad. I'd say joybrennan, that it's probably not fair to judge it just by what other people have said...but then I realize that there were already preconceived notions for the episode so watching the episode wouldn't have changed our opinion of it. He showed the picture, said he arrested her, said it was serious as a heartattack, and that was the end of the Hannah discussion with her. Her going on and on back in PitP about Hacker and sex codes was longer and probably way more hurtful then what Booth did on the steps.

The man has spent 6 years being her doormat, being called stupid many many times, pining after her, watching her sleep with his FBI friend, random men, AND date his boss' boss after he asked her not to. Any normal man would have either quit along time ago or snapped. And her bailing on him to go to Maluku was just the final straw. No, she didn't tell him to move on, that was his idea, but she didn't even attempt to stop him....she gave him NO hope that it would ever be anything other than WORK partners.

Hey..if she can discuss whether coffee with Hacker is a code for sex with him...he can show her a picture of his new hot blonde squeeze. After all...they are just friends and that's what friends do.

I don't remember what thread I said it in...but I said it's like Booth and Brennan have switched places emotionally.

Some of this is one of those circular arguments that have gone on all summer, so I'm not taking it on again. My question is this: Does Booth think she cares about this, or doesn't he? See, because when Brennan had that discussions about codes with Booth, she was trying to find out because she DIDN'T want to have sex with him, and didn't want to give him the wrong message - as well as let BOOTH know she wasn't interested in Hacker that way. She wasn't trying to flaunt some new hot relationship. I don't think the two situations compare.

lancelot wrote: than she turned him down romantically. I'm sure the two together made him crash.

royaldinerlurker wrote:I know that's what we saw but I am not sure that's what he got from it. He's never been very good at seeing Brennan's emotions when they relate to him.