Buffy/Angel fans

Reading the threads around here, I've realized that there are a lot of BTVS/Angel fans on the ABY. So I'm going to ask a question that's been on my mind for a while:
What are everyone's Buffyverse ships? (Wow, Fluff, surprise there that you jumped right to the shippy fangirl question!)
Personally, my main ship in Buffy/Angel. I am ridiculously squeeful over them. Never buy me a shirt that says "I ship B/A, ask me how" because one day someone will ask and the world will come to an end as I'm talking about them.
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Gosh, I can stop a conversation.
So, share your ships, your favorite Buffy or Angel moments, characters and seasons, blah blah blah, happyfuncakes!!!
(Hope my complete insanity didn't show too much)

yay, finally, a buffy/angel thread! great idea, fluff!

of course, buffy and angel!! i really like spike, don't get me wrong, and i thought the whole "spangel" thing was pretty hot too.. but buffy and angel just broke my heart. when he left in the end of season3, i didn't think i'd ever get over it! (okay, i was like 17 or so.. )

and what really really bothered me was angel and cordelia. yuck. just thinking about them makes me wanna barf.

Buffy/Angel, of course! No Spike, (though I freakin' loved him, but he was NOT for Buffy), no Cordy...like lena, that whole thing makes me want to hurl.

Oh, and I also loved Willow and Oz...they rocked. And I love Faith...and if you read my angel fic, I get her together with Spike...lol. They should have done that in the series...

lena152 wrote:yay, finally, a buffy/angel thread! great idea, fluff!

of course, buffy and angel!! i really like spike, don't get me wrong, and i thought the whole "spangel" thing was pretty hot too.. but buffy and angel just broke my heart. when he left in the end of season3, i didn't think i'd ever get over it! (okay, i was like 17 or so.. )

and what really really bothered me was angel and cordelia. yuck. just thinking about them makes me wanna barf.

We are sooooooooo in agreement! Spike is hilarious, but the Spike and Buffy thing in S6 was just awful and created this horrible misrepresentation for a lot of people. There are still girls who see the attempted rape scene in Seeing Red and go "look how much he wants to be with her! He's nuts about her!" No, he's just NUTS and you're nuts for approving of a ship that's all about violence and pain. (That smiley looks too happy)
On Angel and Cordelia, I must go barf as well. It was completely contrived and ridiculous and if the characters ran their own lives, it would never have happened! (Now I just sound like a nutjob, but whatever)

flyersfan35 wrote:Oh, and I also loved Willow and Oz...they rocked. And I love Faith...and if you read my angel fic, I get her together with Spike...lol. They should have done that in the series...

I am constantly torn between Willow/Oz and Willow/Tara. I think they're both adorable and I just can't decide!
I also think Faith could be good with Spike. And I really love reading cute Faith and Angel brother-sister stuff. They can be darn adorable for two supernatural killer type people.

Fluffernutter wrote:

lena152 wrote:yay, finally, a buffy/angel thread! great idea, fluff!

of course, buffy and angel!! i really like spike, don't get me wrong, and i thought the whole "spangel" thing was pretty hot too.. but buffy and angel just broke my heart. when he left in the end of season3, i didn't think i'd ever get over it! (okay, i was like 17 or so.. )

and what really really bothered me was angel and cordelia. yuck. just thinking about them makes me wanna barf.

We are sooooooooo in agreement! Spike is hilarious, but the Spike and Buffy thing in S6 was just awful and created this horrible misrepresentation for a lot of people. There are still girls who see the attempted rape scene in Seeing Red and go "look how much he wants to be with her! He's nuts about her!" No, he's just NUTS and you're nuts for approving of a ship that's all about violence and pain. (That smiley looks too happy)
On Angel and Cordelia, I must go barf as well. It was completely contrived and ridiculous and if the characters ran their own lives, it would never have happened! (Now I just sound like a nutjob, but whatever)

oh my god, yes, that almost-rape scene was definitely one of the most horrifying things i've ever seen on a tv show. joss whedon loves that, doesn't he!? breaking the "laws of tv", like when he had buffy's mom die. that was devastating, too.

i don't know, there's so much to discuss about that scene and their relationship.. (don't think i'm nuts, i do realize it's tv , so that being said...) it was incredibly disturbing, absolutely.. but somehow i can also see the whole scene from spike's point of view.. she is normally a lot stronger than him. so normally there is no way he could ever make her do anything she doesn't want. this is not the typical strong male, weak female picture. and they obviously are into pretty rough sex normally. so i don't see this whole scene as proof of how evil he is. from his perspective, the way he acts makes perfect sense. did i make any sense? i absolutely do not see it as proof of "how much he wants to be with her", god, no. that's just sick.

anyway, what i don't get is why this turn of events was ever written. i do like the dark, more adult tone of seasons 6 and 7. but that was just really really tough to digest. the normally superstrong buffy being victimized like any other female could be any day, spike, a character you just couldn't ever see hurting buffy, ever, doing something like that. i don't know. they could have come up with some other reason for him to go get a soul. her rejection as it was should have been enough.


oh yeah.. and angel and cordelia, that was just wrong. of course, cordelia got a lot more likeable on "angel". and i really loved them as buddys and co-workers, whatever. but as a romantic couple!? pleeeease!?? ridiculous! there was no chemistry whatsoever between those two! none!! zero! nada! niente! rien! null!!!!

wow, looking at my message, am i getting scary emotional about those shows or what!? haha. excuse my rambling! and don't think i'm crazy!

I was always for Buffy/Angel and I liked Willow/Oz too. I really hated it when they had Willow cheat on Oz with Xander while he was dating Cordy. That wasn't a fine moment. I haven't finished watching the whole BTVS series (I'm only on S4 and s2 of Angel ) I liked the Angel/Cordy family/friends/coworkers thing but never as a couple. I also want to barf when I hear about Buffy/Spike and Buffy/Reily or whatever his name was

oh, riley. totally forgot him. you can skip seasons 4 and 5!

lena152 wrote:wow, looking at my message, am i getting scary emotional about those shows or what!? haha. excuse my rambling! and don't think i'm crazy!

Oh, if I thought you were crazy, I'd be the blackest kind of pot. I rant to people who don't even know what I'm TALKING about.
Honestly, I can accept the darkness of the B/S relationship. I don't like it and I wish there had been different creative decisions after S5 (nix the gift and re-meld with Angel; sadly that only happens in fanficland) but I can understand the wish to break the mold. What I can't stand is:
a. fans who think that the AR scene is okay. It is very very NOT okay. Buffy is a character who was created to empower women and girls. By approving of a relationship that is not only brutal by consent but which includes unwilling brutality, people are sanctioning real life situations like that. It makes me sad and a little sick.
b. the writers who say that the B/S relationship is better than the B/A relationship. This is not because I'm a shipper. This is because the two head female writers of the show should not take so much pleasure in writing Spike dominating Buffy dirty scenes. Marti Noxon disliked B/A- she thought they were boring and couldn't go anywhere after S3. But she and Jane Espenson were big supporters of Spuffy. I have to thank the universe for David Fury. This quote of his makes my life every time I read it:
Q: There has been a lot of speculation regarding the Buffy/Spike dynamic in "Crush." One camp believes the S/B arc is an allegory for violence against women; stalking, obsession, threats...the other camp believes Spike is a changed man, and that Buffy is a "bitch" for not giving him a break. Where do you stand on these interpretations?
David Fury: Let's see... Who should I piss off first? Buffy IS a bitch for not giving Spike a break. I mean, what did he ever do to her, but try to KILL her and her friends countless times... team up with Adam to DESTROY HUMANITY... show up at her house with a LOADED SHOTGUN intending to blow her brains out... break into her bedroom to STEAL HER UNDERWEAR... KIDNAP HER, CHAIN HER TO A WALL and threaten to CUT HER UP, BURN HER... Who wouldn't want a guy like that? He's not a "changed man." He is a character full of contradictions and levels and dimensions and other words I can't think of, just like real people (a subject I, admittedly, know nothing about). But, ultimately, he is a demon, evil at the core and selfishly motivated. His "chip" affliction has domesticated him, somewhat, forced him to consider consequences for his actions, and afforded him the opportunity to show something resembling a conscience. Is that redemption? Should Buffy fall in love with a guy who has no moral qualms about killing innocent people if given the chance again? Do you think I'm stupid enough to answer those questions here? And as for the Angel comparison, he can't be held accountable for the actions of Angelus, any more than William can be held accountable for the actions of Spike. But Spike can be held accountable for the actions of Spike because he's Spike and not William, the same way Angel's Angel and not Angelus, unless he's something entirely diff......SOMEBODY STOP ME!"

I'm gonna stop ranting now. I really am.

lena152 wrote:oh, riley. totally forgot him. you can skip seasons 4 and 5!

Oh oh wait! Watch The Body cause it's really really heartbreakingly good, and Forever cause it's got a little taste of B/A!!
But 4 you can skip entirely. I did...except for one scene with Buffy and Angel in The Yoko Factor (sensing a pattern here?)

Oh, Lena, one other point:
I don't think that Spike got his soul on purpose. Maybe the writers meant it to be that way, but the way it was played by James Marsters, Spike gets unhinged and wants the chip out. (quotes from buffyworld.com transcripts. Yay for obsession!)

CLEM: Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You never know what's just around the corner. Things change.
SPIKE: Yeah, they do.
Spike gives a bitter sarcastic laugh. Clem looks at him, kind of helpless.
Then something occurs to Spike. His grin turns nasty.
SPIKE: If you make them.

SPIKE: Get nice and comfy, Slayer. I'll be back. And when I do ... things are gonna change.
He tosses his cigarette onto the ground and rides off.

SPIKE: (nods, barely concealed anger) Thinks she's better than me. Ever since I got this bleeding chip in my head, things ain't been right. Everything's gone to hell.
DEMON: And you want to return to your former self.
SPIKE: Yeah.
Close on the green glowing eyes as the demon laughs evilly.
SPIKE: What?
DEMON: Look what she's reduced you to.
SPIKE: It's this bloody chip-
DEMON: You were a legendary dark warrior, and you let yourself be castrated. (Spike looking angry)
...
SPIKE: Bitch is gonna see a change.

I don't know where the change=Spike wants a soul thing came from. I think of it as a prime example of rewritten canon. I think Spike (rightly) accuses the chip of stirring some human emotions in him. I think he had them from the beginning. Remember how the Judge said that he and Dru had human emotions like jealousy and love? But they're demon human emotions; it's not the same thing.
STOPPING RANT! MUST DO WORK!!!!

Fluffernutter wrote:

lena152 wrote:oh, riley. totally forgot him. you can skip seasons 4 and 5!

Oh oh wait! Watch The Body cause it's really really heartbreakingly good, and Forever cause it's got a little taste of B/A!!
But 4 you can skip entirely. I did...except for one scene with Buffy and Angel in The Yoko Factor (sensing a pattern here?)

Hehe...I watched all of season 4 to give it a chance, but the only ones I watched after were the ones with Angel in it...lol

I have seriously got to get those Angel DVDs I keep seeing everytime I walk in the store. I need the money first though.

But in all honesty...Buffy/Angel. Just....they were probably the first couple I ever officially shipped. I loved them, and still do. Maybe it's that 'forbidden' love type of thing, but I loved the way they were written, the way they brought out things in each other.

I liked Spike as his own character, but yeah...never really liked him and Buffy together either.

...And now I really feel like going and watching a bunch of fanvids and loading up on fanfic.

I just saw some Angel and Buffy seasons at my Walmart for $15. But I shouldn't really complain, I only paid $20 for mine...

oh wow, guess i missed a lot.. sorry ladies, had to sleep, stupid time difference!

fluff... you're absolutely right! spike is furious as he leaves sunnydale and actually looking for the power he needs to kill buffy, right? the fact that the demon gives him a soul is not something he planned.

still, here's what i have to say about spike in general, their relationship and actually all the characters on buffy.. (brace yourselves, haha)

spike is not a good guy by any means. but he's not completely evil either. his weak spot is love, always has been. he would have done anything for drusilla, and he'd do anything for buffy. i don't think he ever actually would have harmed her after falling in love with her over the course of season 5. from the point where he is willing to fight glory for her, i think that becomes clear.

i think to understand the buffy/spike relationship you have to look at the bigger picture.. the one big recurring theme of the show (imo) is people being torn between good and evil:
most obviously angel of course, who has two personas, one completely good, one completely evil.. then there's willow who is normally good but in season 6 goes on rampage, flays a guy and almost destroys the world!.. faith kills a guy even though she's not actually a bad person.. oz turns into a werewolf.. anya is a former demon who has killed god knows how many people.. even giles has done his share of bad things.
and then there's buffy herself.. she's supposed to be the personification of good, but she's always attracted to the "dark side". she falls in love with angel, a vampire she's supposed to hate.. she is tempted to abuse the powers she has whenever she is with faith.. as with every character on the show it's her friends and family who keep her grounded. and when she feels distanced from them after they've raised her from her grave, she loses touch to the good side. that's why she starts the affair with spike, because it's dangerous and forbidden and tempting. maybe that's why she's always so rough with him, too. to keep him at a distance. (i don't see that as a problem either. she's super-strong, she's not being abused in any way. consenting adults can do what they want, i don't care as long as no one is harmed.)

so okay.. where was i.. if you condemn spike you have to condemn a lot of characters on the show. he is torn between good and evil like they all are. willow is just as volatile and probably a lot more dangerous, but her friends never give up on her. they still love her and accept her back. whether that's a good message or not, i don't know. but it's the message that's brought across over the entire course of the show. i don't see spike as an exception.


what we totally agree on is the "ar" scene.. that was absolutely not necessary, and just totally wrong.. i hated seeing buffy that weak and helpless.. and it didn't even make sense to me either. when has she ever been weakened like that by a fight? she should have been able to throw spike across the room in a second. she's supposed to be the heroine, not the victim.

Fluffernutter wrote:

lena152 wrote:oh, riley. totally forgot him. you can skip seasons 4 and 5!

Oh oh wait! Watch The Body cause it's really really heartbreakingly good, and Forever cause it's got a little taste of B/A!!
But 4 you can skip entirely. I did...except for one scene with Buffy and Angel in The Yoko Factor (sensing a pattern here?)

oh no you have to watch "hush" from season 4!! that's an incredible episode. and i remember some of the first few epis of season 4 being absolutely hilarious. after the initiative and adam show up you can skip the rest though...

season 5 idk.. i found glory incredibly annoying, and i never liked dawn.. too much of those two. so watching "the body" and "forever" should do it, i agree.

lena152 wrote:

Fluffernutter wrote:

lena152 wrote:oh, riley. totally forgot him. you can skip seasons 4 and 5!

Oh oh wait! Watch The Body cause it's really really heartbreakingly good, and Forever cause it's got a little taste of B/A!!
But 4 you can skip entirely. I did...except for one scene with Buffy and Angel in The Yoko Factor (sensing a pattern here?)

oh no you have to watch "hush" from season 4!! that's an incredible episode. and i remember some of the first few epis of season 4 being absolutely hilarious. after the initiative and adam show up you can skip the rest though...

season 5 idk.. i found glory incredibly annoying, and i never liked dawn.. too much of those two. so watching "the body" and "forever" should do it, i agree.

Sorry...I did watch Hush. Loved the Giles scene!!

lena152 wrote:oh wow, guess i missed a lot.. sorry ladies, had to sleep, stupid time difference!

fluff... you're absolutely right! spike is furious as he leaves sunnydale and actually looking for the power he needs to kill buffy, right? the fact that the demon gives him a soul is not something he planned.

still, here's what i have to say about spike in general, their relationship and actually all the characters on buffy.. (brace yourselves, haha)

spike is not a good guy by any means. but he's not completely evil either. his weak spot is love, always has been. he would have done anything for drusilla, and he'd do anything for buffy. i don't think he ever actually would have harmed her after falling in love with her over the course of season 5. from the point where he is willing to fight glory for her, i think that becomes clear.

i think to understand the buffy/spike relationship you have to look at the bigger picture.. the one big recurring theme of the show (imo) is people being torn between good and evil:
most obviously angel of course, who has two personas, one completely good, one completely evil.. then there's willow who is normally good but in season 6 goes on rampage, flays a guy and almost destroys the world!.. faith kills a guy even though she's not actually a bad person.. oz turns into a werewolf.. anya is a former demon who has killed god knows how many people.. even giles has done his share of bad things.
and then there's buffy herself.. she's supposed to be the personification of good, but she's always attracted to the "dark side". she falls in love with angel, a vampire she's supposed to hate.. she is tempted to abuse the powers she has whenever she is with faith.. as with every character on the show it's her friends and family who keep her grounded. and when she feels distanced from them after they've raised her from her grave, she loses touch to the good side. that's why she starts the affair with spike, because it's dangerous and forbidden and tempting. maybe that's why she's always so rough with him, too. to keep him at a distance. (i don't see that as a problem either. she's super-strong, she's not being abused in any way. consenting adults can do what they want, i don't care as long as no one is harmed.)

so okay.. where was i.. if you condemn spike you have to condemn a lot of characters on the show. he is torn between good and evil like they all are. willow is just as volatile and probably a lot more dangerous, but her friends never give up on her. they still love her and accept her back. whether that's a good message or not, i don't know. but it's the message that's brought across over the entire course of the show. i don't see spike as an exception.


what we totally agree on is the "ar" scene.. that was absolutely not necessary, and just totally wrong.. i hated seeing buffy that weak and helpless.. and it didn't even make sense to me either. when has she ever been weakened like that by a fight? she should have been able to throw spike across the room in a second. she's supposed to be the heroine, not the victim.

I don't think that it's fair to say that soulless Spike is the same as anyone else from the Buffyverse. Because...well, he doesn't have a soul. I don't think he can be expected to be held to the same standards, but he also shouldn't be seen as the same. True, he did help them, but I believe that if he had the chance, he wouldn't wait a second to get rid of the chip and start snacking on the people he used to save.
That said, I don't think they did a good job with post soul Spike. He regretted hurting Buffy (as he should) but he was never haunted by any of the victims he killed, even when he was being haunted by the First. In Amends, Angel is completely horrified by the memories that the First brings up about the people he hurt/killed who were alive hundreds of years before Buffy was even born. Granted, I'm sure they didn't want to make Spike Angel #2 (they already failed at that, IMO), he had support, he knew he wasn't alone, Spike wasn't as completely all out evil as Angelus (although there is that whole 'shoving railroad spikes through people's heads' thing...) etc. But there were no signs of remorse for the aprox. 120 years of murder pre-chip AT ALL! And he bounced back mighty quickly... The blame for these mistakes I lay with the writers. I lost my faith in them towards the end.

On a completely separate note, who do you guys see Fred with? I prefer Fred/Wesley myself, but Fred/Gunn doesn't want to make me gouge out my own eyes or anything.

Fluffernutter wrote:On a completely separate note, who do you guys see Fred with? I prefer Fred/Wesley myself, but Fred/Gunn doesn't want to make me gouge out my own eyes or anything.

Fred/Wes, definitely...

yes, definitely fred and wes! i never cared much for fred, but in season 5 i really got to like her. especially when she turned into illyria! before, i never thought amy acker was much of an actress, but as illyria she really impressed me. she was so different, with that deep voice, that was amazing.

I was kinda meh about Illyria. I always felt:
a. cheated out of the Wes/Fred party.
b. like the plot twist came too late.
The first time I was REALLY impressed by Amy Acker was this tiny moment in season 4, I think. When Angel and Cordelia are missing and Fred and Gunn are trying to keep everything together. There's just this tiny line where she's like "I'm so damn tired of keeping my chin up!" I don't know why, that just broke me.

Just wanted to share this with my Buffy buds: I've been getting a buttload of emails and letters from different colleges and I've been trying to decide which to keep and which to toss. The decision was easy, though when it came to one. I immediately eliminated Fordham University on the grounds of "I can't support anything that shares a name with a Buffy villain".
Which just cements my place in the wacko hall of fame.